Lakers/Celtics: Which franchise reigns supreme?

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Laker_Celtics_logos.pngLakers fans and Celtics fans do not like each other. True rivals. Some grudging respect through the hate, but both want to take each other out.

And both know they are the best franchise in the NBA. PBT’s Kurt Helin (taking the Lakers side)  and Matt Moore ( Celtics) hash the franchise debate out.

Kurt Helin
: No doubt, you have to respect the Celtics history. The thing is, it is history. Most of their titles came almost 50 years ago — time has passed the Celtics by. They are the Betty White of NBA franchises, still trying to milk a little more out of past glory. They’re still better than most, but the Lakers won more titles in the 80s. More titles last decade. The Lakers are more relevant now.

Matt Moore: And yet barring a KG injury, the path to three straight finals appearances is wide open, including a victory over the Lakers. And recent history won’t overcome the only number that matters. Seventeen.

KH: Sure, 17. Thing is, Bill Russell is not coming out of that tunnel. Larry Bird is not suiting up. The mythology of the Celtics is old, it took buying a title with a lucky trade for KG to get that one more banner. Meanwhile while the Celtics struggled since the 80s the Lakers just kept rebuilding, making smart moves and marching forward. They understand how to win and keep winning. All the Celtics need understand is that window — that imported championship window — is closing fast.

MM: And yet for all their machinations, all their savvy, and all their guile, it still came down to drawing an ace with Kobe and then abusing the luxury tax for them to reach the peal of the mountain, and yet still the C’s hang more banners.

Meanwhile the Celtics’ hard nosed legacy and mystique lived on while the Lakers are no more than a good, not great championship team that lacks effort and heart. Even their former glory is shaded in pomp and circumstance: “Showtime.”

And for all the rebuilding and progress L.A. has made, what do they really have? A window longer by what, 2 seasons, max?

KH: The longer window, even by a couple years, means once again the Lakers will leave this era with more titles than the Celtics.

You are dismissive of “showtime” but it is the perfect embodiment of Los Angeles. This city is about entertainment and winning, and “showtime” means both. Why not win with flair? Not just the Magic-era teams, but now Kobe is putting on a show, hitting fade-away game winners with two hands in his face. Don’t confuse “showtime” with soft. The 80s Lakers were not soft. The Shaq-led three-peat teams were not soft. And if the Celtics think these Lakers are soft, they are in for a shock.

The Celtics legacy? Built on unfair talent advantages for a decade, and tedious physical play. Take the beautiful game and grind it down. Destroy the artistry, ugly it all up. Push, grab and hold. No thanks, I will take the pure game from Los Angeles. Anytime.

MM: You can cherish that pure game all you want, the fact is, that bullying style has been more effective. Beauty’s nice. Strength is better. This isn’t a beauty contest, it’s armed conflict in the gladiatorial arena. You bring the makeup mirror and I’ll bring the crowbar and we’ll see which one walks out.

And you can project all you want for those titles, but it’s not like we haven’t seen the egos in L.A. detonate their title window (hello, 2004!) before. We have what we have, and what we have, is a Celtics franchise with more titles, and who has done it with more nuance and sophistication than simply stocking up on the biggest, prettiest players they can swindle for. And if you want projection, you’ve got to go ahead and tag an asterisk on that 15th championship for not having gone through Boston due to injury.

Furthermore, in the greater franchise context, the Lakers didn’t even start in L.A. They’re the Lakers. Despite L.A. not really being known for its lakes. If it were the Los Angeles People That Only Show Up To Sporting Events Because It’s Fashionable, that would make sense. The atmosphere at the Garden, even the TD Northbank versus the old Garden, dwarfs the experience in the fashion show that is Staples. Boston’s been around forever, and is tied to that city in a way the Lakers will never be because there’s nothing to tie to L.A. Well, besides plastic surgery, perhaps. The Celtics are a classic franchise in sports, the likes of the Packers and Yankees. The Lakers are a championship organization brought out of nothing organic. The Twinkies of sports. Immensely popular, but there’s nothing really there.

KH: Los Angeles is a city of transplants? What exactly is Boston? The place where the first settlers landed — the first transplants? With a team named after the Irish homeland?

Forget it. It’s time to settle this on the court. Again.

So you know what’s going on here: Kurt Helin is the blogger-in-chief of ProBasketballTalk.com and a lifelong Lakers fan. Matt Moore is the weekend editor of ProBasketballTalk.com and doesn’t really think either team is the best franchise, he’s just playing devil’s advocate. He tends to think the Oklahoma City Thunder are the best franchise, because he likes Thunderstix.

Joel Embiid was dunking, blocking, leading Sixers past Bucks (VIDEOS)

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Joel Embiid is making his case to be in the All-Star Game in more places than Twitter.

He made it on the court Monday with a dominant second half — 18 points on six shots — to lead the Sixers to a 113-104 win over the Bucks. The Sixers are 5-2 in 2017, and this gives them a couple of quality wins.

Embiid was both throwing it down with authority — as you can see above — and he was racking up blocked shots as well. He was also showing Jabari Parker you need to go strong to the rim against him, or you get sent home without lunch.

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Carmelo Anthony says he hasn’t spoken to Jackson, wants to remain a Knick

NEW YORK, NY - JANUARY 12:  Carmelo Anthony #7 of the New York Knicks during a stop in play against the Chicago Bulls at Madison Square Garden on January 12, 2017 in New York City. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and or using this Photograph, user is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement  (Photo by Elsa/Getty Images)
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When Phil Jackson (sometimes through his surrogates) starts working his mind games, things are not often clear. However, out of the whole “trade Carmelo Anthony saga” circa 2017 (there have been 2014, 2015, and 2016 versions), two things should be clear:

1. Carmelo Anthony isn’t looking to leave the Knicks.

2. He would rather talk to management and end this rather than have a back-and-forth with the press as conduits.

Anthony reiterated as much Monday at Madison Square Garden, where the Knicks had a heartbreaking loss to the Hawks (where New York got hosed on the last call, but Anthony missed a bunny or the game winner). Via Al Iannazzone of Newsday and Ian Begley of ESPN.

Carmelo Anthony was asked about how “much” he wants to remain a Knick and about his loyalty to the franchise: “I think I’ve proven that. I don’t have to speak on that. I think I’ve proven that over the years day in and day out.” Anthony says he’s shown that by being a professional every day in his approach and handling the duties of being the public face of the franchise every day. He’s handled that well, in my opinion.

Anthony chose New York (and a few more wheelbarrows full of cash) over his other free agency options, and he didn’t do that looking to bail. He wants to win in New York.

It’s fair to question if Anthony can win in New York with the direction the Knicks are headed. It’s fair to suggest Anthony should be moved and this team rebuilt around Kristaps Porzingis, but then that should have happened last summer. Instead, the Knicks brought in Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah. Also, because Anthony has a no-trade clause and doesn’t actually want to be traded, the Knicks would need to put together a nearly impossibly perfect deal — with a contender in a major market willing to pay ‘Melo’s massive salary — for a trade to get done.

Anthony and the Knicks are frustrated. Monday’s loss to the Hawks isn’t going to help that.

Jackson and Anthony should sit down and talk it out. I’d say that’s what happens in a well-run organization, but in a well-run organization it would have already happened. Will it happen in New York? This is the Knicks, they pretty much live in “the upside down” so who knows.

Report: Heat say Hassan Whiteside not available in trade

Miami Heat center Hassan Whiteside, right, and Los Angeles Clippers forward Wesley Johnson reach for a rebound during the second half of an NBA basketball game, Sunday, Jan. 8, 2017, in Los Angeles. The Clippers won 98-86. (AP Photo/Mark J. Terrill)
AP Photo/Mark J. Terrill
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Hassan Whiteside is the Heat’s franchise player.

But Miami is also 11-30, and Heat president Pat Riley has acknowledged a need to rebuild.

Where does that leave Whiteside with a potential trade?

Barry Jackson of the Miami Herald:

This is likely based on the Heat’s understanding of the trade market. If another team offered a favorable return for Whiteside, I bet Miami would trade him in an instant. The Heat just haven’t gotten – and seemingly don’t expect – a suitable offer.

Whiteside gives Miami a starting point. It will be more difficult to build through free agency with the new Collective Bargaining Agreement giving greater incentive for stars to stay with their current teams, but what choice do the Heat have but to try? They can still offer a state without income tax, warm weather, nightlife, a winning history and – if they keep Whiteside – a star teammate.

Goran Dragic is the Miami player more likely to be traded.

Derrick Rose and Carmelo Anthony miss on Knicks’ controversial final possession against Hawks (video)

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Derrick Rose and Carmelo Anthony scored the Knicks’ last eight points, but on New York’s final possession, the Hawks found a way to stop them:

A lot of contact and a little luck.

Paul Millsap blocked/hacked Rose on the guard’s drive, but the referees swallowed their whistles. Knicks coach Jeff Hornacek was rightly irate afterward, and the NBA’s two-minute report is now highly anticipated.

The ball still trickled to Anthony, who missed his point-blank follow-up without any similar excuse. Joakim Noah even got a tip attempt, though that had little chance.

After those three misses on New York’s final possession, Dennis Schroder‘s 3-pointer stood as the game-winner in Atlanta’s 108-107 victory: