Lakers/Celtics: Which franchise reigns supreme?

110 Comments

Laker_Celtics_logos.pngLakers fans and Celtics fans do not like each other. True rivals. Some grudging respect through the hate, but both want to take each other out.

And both know they are the best franchise in the NBA. PBT’s Kurt Helin (taking the Lakers side)  and Matt Moore ( Celtics) hash the franchise debate out.

Kurt Helin
: No doubt, you have to respect the Celtics history. The thing is, it is history. Most of their titles came almost 50 years ago — time has passed the Celtics by. They are the Betty White of NBA franchises, still trying to milk a little more out of past glory. They’re still better than most, but the Lakers won more titles in the 80s. More titles last decade. The Lakers are more relevant now.

Matt Moore: And yet barring a KG injury, the path to three straight finals appearances is wide open, including a victory over the Lakers. And recent history won’t overcome the only number that matters. Seventeen.

KH: Sure, 17. Thing is, Bill Russell is not coming out of that tunnel. Larry Bird is not suiting up. The mythology of the Celtics is old, it took buying a title with a lucky trade for KG to get that one more banner. Meanwhile while the Celtics struggled since the 80s the Lakers just kept rebuilding, making smart moves and marching forward. They understand how to win and keep winning. All the Celtics need understand is that window — that imported championship window — is closing fast.

MM: And yet for all their machinations, all their savvy, and all their guile, it still came down to drawing an ace with Kobe and then abusing the luxury tax for them to reach the peal of the mountain, and yet still the C’s hang more banners.

Meanwhile the Celtics’ hard nosed legacy and mystique lived on while the Lakers are no more than a good, not great championship team that lacks effort and heart. Even their former glory is shaded in pomp and circumstance: “Showtime.”

And for all the rebuilding and progress L.A. has made, what do they really have? A window longer by what, 2 seasons, max?

KH: The longer window, even by a couple years, means once again the Lakers will leave this era with more titles than the Celtics.

You are dismissive of “showtime” but it is the perfect embodiment of Los Angeles. This city is about entertainment and winning, and “showtime” means both. Why not win with flair? Not just the Magic-era teams, but now Kobe is putting on a show, hitting fade-away game winners with two hands in his face. Don’t confuse “showtime” with soft. The 80s Lakers were not soft. The Shaq-led three-peat teams were not soft. And if the Celtics think these Lakers are soft, they are in for a shock.

The Celtics legacy? Built on unfair talent advantages for a decade, and tedious physical play. Take the beautiful game and grind it down. Destroy the artistry, ugly it all up. Push, grab and hold. No thanks, I will take the pure game from Los Angeles. Anytime.

MM: You can cherish that pure game all you want, the fact is, that bullying style has been more effective. Beauty’s nice. Strength is better. This isn’t a beauty contest, it’s armed conflict in the gladiatorial arena. You bring the makeup mirror and I’ll bring the crowbar and we’ll see which one walks out.

And you can project all you want for those titles, but it’s not like we haven’t seen the egos in L.A. detonate their title window (hello, 2004!) before. We have what we have, and what we have, is a Celtics franchise with more titles, and who has done it with more nuance and sophistication than simply stocking up on the biggest, prettiest players they can swindle for. And if you want projection, you’ve got to go ahead and tag an asterisk on that 15th championship for not having gone through Boston due to injury.

Furthermore, in the greater franchise context, the Lakers didn’t even start in L.A. They’re the Lakers. Despite L.A. not really being known for its lakes. If it were the Los Angeles People That Only Show Up To Sporting Events Because It’s Fashionable, that would make sense. The atmosphere at the Garden, even the TD Northbank versus the old Garden, dwarfs the experience in the fashion show that is Staples. Boston’s been around forever, and is tied to that city in a way the Lakers will never be because there’s nothing to tie to L.A. Well, besides plastic surgery, perhaps. The Celtics are a classic franchise in sports, the likes of the Packers and Yankees. The Lakers are a championship organization brought out of nothing organic. The Twinkies of sports. Immensely popular, but there’s nothing really there.

KH: Los Angeles is a city of transplants? What exactly is Boston? The place where the first settlers landed — the first transplants? With a team named after the Irish homeland?

Forget it. It’s time to settle this on the court. Again.

So you know what’s going on here: Kurt Helin is the blogger-in-chief of ProBasketballTalk.com and a lifelong Lakers fan. Matt Moore is the weekend editor of ProBasketballTalk.com and doesn’t really think either team is the best franchise, he’s just playing devil’s advocate. He tends to think the Oklahoma City Thunder are the best franchise, because he likes Thunderstix.

Watch Wizards’ Otto Porter drain halfcourt shot

WASHINGTON, DC - SEPTEMBER 26:  Otto Porter Jr. #22 of the Washington Wizards  poses for a photo during media day  at Verizon Center on September 26, 2016 in Washington, DC.  NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and or using this photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement.  (Photo by Rob Carr/Getty Images)
Leave a comment

The Washington Wizards were having a little fun, a half-court shooting contest near the end of practice on Friday.

Apparently, half court is well within Otto Porter‘s range.

https://platform.vine.co/static/scripts/embed.js

Porter’s going to be starting at the three, working next to John Wall and Bradley Beal, and they could use another shooter to help balance the floor this season. Porter hit 36.7 percent from three last year, he’s got some range. Although he really shouldn’t try this shot mid-game, Brooks wouldn’t even let Kevin Durant do that.

Bryan Colangelo: 76ers had losing culture

Dwayne Casey
AP Photo/The Canadian Press, Frank Gunn
Leave a comment

Sam Hinkie’s Process made sense on paper. Get young, lose, draft high, repeat until the 76ers stockpiled enough talent to surge forward with a clean cap sheet.

But the Process didn’t unfold on paper, and there was always a catch. What damage would years of losing do to the organization and the real people within it?

We know some of the fallout. The Process embarrassed ownership, leading to Hinkie’s ouster. It also – according to Hinkie’s replacement, Bryan Colangelo, – created a toxic environment.

Colangelo, via The Vertical Podcast with Woj:

Really, factually, there was a losing culture. There was a losing mindset.

It had been ingrained partly because of the undertaking of rebuilding that they had been going through. And it’s a byproduct of the rebuilding process, if you will. You’re going to lose some games along the way, and it becomes part of the fabric of the team and the organization.

And I think more than anything the mindset needed to shift. The mindset needed to change. And that’s why we’ve been talking about winning and doing everything to promote winning, promote a culture of excellence, to promote better thought process in everything.

Keep in mind, the worse the 76ers are perceived at the time Colangelo took over, the better he’ll look.

But there was real evidence of a bad culture – from Jahlil Okafor‘s fighting to Joel Embiid‘s coachability to Nerlens Noel‘s tardiness. Players knew maximum focus and effort wouldn’t result in winning anyway, so that made it easier for bad habits to develop. Those bad habits can be contagious. Try as he might, coach Brett Brown couldn’t stem the tide.

Colangelo is trying to go a different way, bringing in veterans like Elton Brand, Gerald Henderson and Jerryd Bayless. Philadelphia won’t have as many roster spots for young players with upside, and those vets occupy cap space. But, right or wrong, Colangelo identified a problem and is trying to fix it.

Report: Ben Simmons suffered acute foot injury, will need surgery

TARRYTOWN, NEW YORK - AUGUST 07:  Ben Simmons of the Philadelphia 76ers poses for a portrait during the 2016 NBA Rookie Photoshoot at Madison Square Garden Training Center on August 7, 2016 in Tarrytown, New York. NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and/or using this Photograph, user is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement. Mandatory Copyright Notice: Copyright 2016 NBAE  (Photo by Nick Laham/Getty Images)
Getty Images
5 Comments

Within hours of the Sixers’ No. 1 pick Ben Simmons going down with a foot injury that might derail his rookie season, the rumors about it being weight related started. Simmons needed to add weight coming it of LSU and had reportedly put on more than 30 pounds since the draft. Was that too much too quickly? Both players and major trainers have said yes.

The Sixers have moved to shoot this down, saying this was an acute fracture — something that happened suddenly, from stepping on a teammate’s foot Friday during a scrimage — and was not stress related, as would happen with weight issues.

More importantly, the severity of the break means surgery, reports Marc Stein of ESPN.

Surgery will mean Simmons likely will miss a majority — if not all — of the coming season, and you can be sure the Sixers will be cautious bringing him back (we saw that with Joel Embiid).

This is just deflating to a Sixers franchise that has had terrible luck with injuries the past couple of years. And yes, some people around the league quietly will say this is karma for all the tanking.

Celtics’ Terry Rozier says he wants all of Evan Turner’s minutes

Boston Celtics guard Terry Rozier shoots during NBA basketball training camp, Tuesday, Sept. 27, 2016, in Waltham, Mass. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)
Associated Press
Leave a comment

There is a pecking order in the Celtics backcourt: Isaiah Thomas is the scoring/playmaking point guard, with Avery Bradley and Marcus Smart playing the more defensive backcourt teammate role next to him at different times.

Still, there are minutes to be had — Evan Turner is no longer in camp and the secondary playmaker. He is on another coast trying to become the other playmaker Portland needs.

Second-year player Terry Rozier wants those minutes.

Good. Celtics fans should like that their young player is saying this.

More importantly, reports out of Celtics training camp say Rozier is playing very well, using his speed to create shots for himself and others. It’s been a great change of pace for the Celtics, one Brad Stevens could put to use this season.

Rozier is going to be coming off the bench, but if he can do that and bring this energy and shot creation, he’s going to get plenty of run this season. And be another part of a strong young core in Boston that just keeps getting better.